UO Second Age

I will leave tomorrow if we don't have something new and super-awesome like unicorns or flying carpets. Don't need BOTH by tomorrow but at least one. Thanks.

Also, I would like to receive my anniversary gift on MY anniversary, not UOSA's. Have some respect.

Faust wrote:I've said it time after time... automated events in the form of real world non-instance based events does not break the era accuracy stance. This is clearly a policy related issue and it will remain that way. There is no reason that automated events could not be implemented into a non-instance based real world environment.

Simple as that really.

Yuuuuuup

Abyz wrote:

Faust wrote:I've said it time after time... automated events in the form of real world non-instance based events does not break the era accuracy stance. This is clearly a policy related issue and it will remain that way. There is no reason that automated events could not be implemented into a non-instance based real world environment.

Simple as that really.

Yuuuuuup

Let me drive into a few walls we hit while chatting about this among ourselves (Staff) - maybe there are solutions you could suggest to get over the following...

1) How would looting work? These old games were no loot.

2) How would dying and ressing work? In the old games, you died and were teleported back to your base and resurrected with all your items. For non-base games, you were resurrected with all of your items in another fashion.

3) How would non-players ('spectators') work? What would stop someone from coming in and throwing purples, casting earthquake, dropping footstools, chopping boxes, or luring in an army of cats and dogs to interrupt gameplay?

These are just 3 of many hurdles we've been trying to get over. Trust me when I say we've spent countless hours debating as a team. There's a lot more involved than simply moving the games into the "real UO world" or "flipping a switch" to turn them back on.

Yeah I would definitely shake up crafting to get the economy moving. It needs more of an end-game like PVP has. Make it so crafters have to invest time into doing something/attaining something - then the majority of 1337 players will have even less motivation to just macro crafting on their third account.

Boomland Jenkins wrote:

Abyz wrote:

Faust wrote:I've said it time after time... automated events in the form of real world non-instance based events does not break the era accuracy stance. This is clearly a policy related issue and it will remain that way. There is no reason that automated events could not be implemented into a non-instance based real world environment.

Simple as that really.

Yuuuuuup

Let me drive into a few walls we hit while chatting about this among ourselves (Staff) - maybe there are solutions you could suggest to get over the following...

1) How would looting work? These old games were no loot.

2) How would dying and ressing work? In the old games, you died and were teleported back to your base and resurrected with all your items. For non-base games, you were resurrected with all of your items in another fashion.

3) How would non-players ('spectators') work? What would stop someone from coming in and throwing purples, casting earthquake, dropping footstools, chopping boxes, or luring in an army of cats and dogs to interrupt gameplay?

These are just 3 of many hurdles we've been trying to get over. Trust me when I say we've spent countless hours debating as a team. There's a lot more involved than simply moving the games into the "real UO world" or "flipping a switch" to turn them back on.

1. Arena like the Tournament in old UO. Set it up to happen in Jhelom pits. During the event, no one can go down there. I assume you guys can create a script that removes the winner from the pit to a different room and set up a ankh for ressurecting.

2. Answered it in #1

3. It is in town and you can't get in there during the event.


Of course, GMs Watched the tournaments that happened this way and locked people out of their accounts if they interfered. We could just consider this change to be like the "help I'm stuck" option. Less GM activity, more automated.

Boomland Jenkins wrote: Let me drive into a few walls we hit while chatting about this among ourselves (Staff) - maybe there are solutions you could suggest to get over the following...

1) How would looting work? These old games were no loot.

2) How would dying and ressing work? In the old games, you died and were teleported back to your base and resurrected with all your items. For non-base games, you were resurrected with all of your items in another fashion.

3) How would non-players ('spectators') work? What would stop someone from coming in and throwing purples, casting earthquake, dropping footstools, chopping boxes, or luring in an army of cats and dogs to interrupt gameplay?

These are just 3 of many hurdles we've been trying to get over. Trust me when I say we've spent countless hours debating as a team. There's a lot more involved than simply moving the games into the "real UO world" or "flipping a switch" to turn them back on.

The answer to this is quite simple, nothing would stop this... talked to Derrick about this several times over the past 6 years and there is nothing stopping us from integrating events, even if this includes a total rewrite/concept, into the real world. We could have tournaments held in Jhelmon duel pits. Capture the flag could be rewritten into a town capture scene with special interest points. The options are limitless. People will lose their stuff, get gimped, die, and have to come back through normal means. This will not deter someone from jumping back in just like Factions on production shards.

There is absolutely no reason what so ever that events could not be structured around a real in game environment.

The whole issue is because of the "instance" based structure that the old system was based around.

EA had numerous events during T2A, including special tournaments and varoius other unusual event situations. Running these on an automated switch compared to via staff trigger is a retarded argument in terms of era accuracy. Triggers are not an era accurate mechanic that is based around game play. No different than the special code put in place for holidays that I created. These are all automated based around the holidays where no trigger is targeted soon as 12am hits.

Yes, one could argue that automated events were not a part of the t2a era but so wasn't numerous other policy issues that we have here. This is a policy issue and that is that really...

My point in responding a few posts up was to point out that this isn't a simple "let's just do this..." solution like everyone assumes it is - this type of thinking is what got us to where we are today with the outcry.

To my knowledge, Derrick added the automated games as a way to mix things up at the time. They were never intended on being here as long as they were. Anyone who's been involved in this on-going debate can (better) name a dozen things that were wrong with them. Revamping a system that was entirely broken/not part of the "UOSA roadmap" is a terrible idea. Instead, developing something new, fresh, and inline with our goals as a Shard is a much better solution. We've only had a new, active Developer for about 3.5 months right now, I personally would say we're making some good headway on issues that have been built up for 2-3 years. You can be patient and let our new team work together to figure something out, or you can continue to make these insane threads that are filled with inaccurate and incorrect information.

Players seem to overlook a lot of facts and keep falling back on this assumption that automated games are somehow a magic bullet. They ignore the full picture. Heck, some of the people making the outcry were never even here for automated games and are just riding the bandwagon's opinion because they assume it's true.

GuardianKnight wrote:1. Arena like the Tournament in old UO. Set it up to happen in Jhelom pits. During the event, no one can go down there. I assume you guys can create a script that removes the winner from the pit to a different room and set up a ankh for ressurecting.

Definitely possible. However, adding in LOS blockers, preventing recalling/gating in, preventing users from logging in, etc.. this all changes mechanics of the system in place. It changes how "town" operates

GuardianKnight wrote:3. It is in town and you can't get in there during the event.

The problem I personally have with this (and this isn't a reflection of UOSA Staff as a whole) is that it interrupts gameplay. Once in awhile, it's fine. However, if we ever put re-occurring weekly games into affect, this would not be acceptable. This basically caters to a fraction of the shard's population.

Faust wrote:There is absolutely no reason what so ever that events could not be structured around a real in game environment.

Agreed. We've been having genuine events in the "real UO world" since the end of 2013.

Faust wrote:People will lose their stuff, get gimped, die, and have to come back through normal means. This will not deter someone from jumping back in just like Factions on production shards.

I don't think people would attend the event if they're losing their own stuff. A good portion of people who attended the old games were new or newish players - players who can't really afford to lose items. For those new players who do attend, they may simply leave all their items in the bank and basically not participate, which eventually leads to one sided fights and a lot of whining as we saw in the past at the old automated games.

On top of this, once 2-3 players decide to get on and grief every game as a "non player" for a week or 2, you better believe attendance to these games would be down. If we make them less grief-able, then we're most likely adding in mechanics that are not inline with T2A. This is probably one of the biggest struggles. We aren't going to start banning people for playing UO in a way that doesn't actually break rules. Some people play UO as a menace, that's their choice and we don't ban people simply for being jerks to other players like some shards do.

Faust wrote:Yes, one could argue that automated events were not a part of the t2a era but so wasn't numerous other policy issues that we have here. This is a policy issue and that is that really...

I'm not one to make that argument. I personally think events are good, but the old thing we call "automated events" are NOT events. These were merely games. Only the tournaments were really inline with what an 'event' is. The content we've been adding and are developing are more accuracy to what the T2A era experienced as events across (most) production shards.

----
I'm not having an on-going debate about the old automated games, it's been beaten to death, and the body has decayed. You're welcome to reach out to me with new, valid ideas on improving or creating a new system, but anything regarding the old system will be ignored.

We're more than happy to help organize events, but adding extra mechanics that cater to a specific playstyle is not something we're all that interested in doing. If a player can't do it on their own (mechanically speaking), it's probably not fit for T2A. In terms of adding structured ladders or with event-flow, I personally (and I'm fairly certain Mammoth and Anarcho) are happy to volunteer our time to help an event run smoothly whenever possible.

GuardianKnight wrote:

Boomland Jenkins wrote:

Abyz wrote:

Faust wrote:I've said it time after time... automated events in the form of real world non-instance based events does not break the era accuracy stance. This is clearly a policy related issue and it will remain that way. There is no reason that automated events could not be implemented into a non-instance based real world environment.

Simple as that really.

Yuuuuuup

Let me drive into a few walls we hit while chatting about this among ourselves (Staff) - maybe there are solutions you could suggest to get over the following...

1) How would looting work? These old games were no loot.

2) How would dying and ressing work? In the old games, you died and were teleported back to your base and resurrected with all your items. For non-base games, you were resurrected with all of your items in another fashion.

3) How would non-players ('spectators') work? What would stop someone from coming in and throwing purples, casting earthquake, dropping footstools, chopping boxes, or luring in an army of cats and dogs to interrupt gameplay?

These are just 3 of many hurdles we've been trying to get over. Trust me when I say we've spent countless hours debating as a team. There's a lot more involved than simply moving the games into the "real UO world" or "flipping a switch" to turn them back on.

1. Arena like the Tournament in old UO. Set it up to happen in Jhelom pits. During the event, no one can go down there. I assume you guys can create a script that removes the winner from the pit to a different room and set up a ankh for ressurecting.

2. Answered it in #1

3. It is in town and you can't get in there during the event.


Of course, GMs Watched the tournaments that happened this way and locked people out of their accounts if they interfered. We could just consider this change to be like the "help I'm stuck" option. Less GM activity, more automated.

Is this not the literal definition of trammel? I'm not trying to flame here, but this is seriously my point about you and trammel. Your suggestion is that we disallow any interference and interaction by players who don't want what you want, specifically players who enjoy griefing and PKing. Unless neon pink mares are going to be dressed as guards to surround the pit, I can't think of something more close to a representation of trammel. In fact, the idea of a staff member of an anti-trammel shard agreeing with the possibility of this hurts.

You really do seem to have it out for me lately. Are you having some kind of a personal crisis?

I mean it when I say that I'm here for you if you need me. There really is no reason to lash out. I'm not your enemy.

The staff just said that they wanted to add cool things to the server, but it wouldn't be satisfactory to just put it in there and have it all become waste of space, used only for a minority of people.

Faust said that the only era inaccuracy was that it was instanced. If this is to be a OFFICIAL event, I see no problems with setting up rules.

Staff, in old uo, would have put you in jail for sabotaging OFFICIAL, Advertised, regulated, events.
Maybe you could attack people in the audience area with tricks and shenanigans, but the actual event would be off limits.

GuardianKnight wrote:You really do seem to have it out for me lately. Are you having some kind of a personal crisis?

I mean it when I say that I'm here for you if you need me. There really is no reason to lash out. I'm not your enemy.

The staff just said that they wanted to add cool things to the server, but it wouldn't be satisfactory to just put it in there and have it all become waste of space, used only for a minority of people.

Faust said that the only era inaccuracy was that it was instanced. If this is to be a OFFICIAL event, I see no problems with setting up rules.

Staff, in old uo, would have put you in jail for sabotaging OFFICIAL, Advertised, regulated, events.
Maybe you could attack people in the audience area with tricks and shenanigans, but the actual event would be off limits.

I didn't play old UO, and I'm not going to read about it to debate this with you. However, I'll leave my definition of trammel for the point of contention and discussion.

Trammel: Any mechanic or location where the game and staff outright protects players from other players.

Its going to be hard to replicate things like capture the flag. Thats why its so sad that AE wont come back.
BUT, the only way I can imagine it possible is to create a CTF arena somewhere thats custom made by the gms, have people enter the game, then close the doors. Put a red wandering healer in the castle or dungeon/.building where the CTF takes place and then use the same system for points and such (like can you guys somehow make it possible to make the guy who has the flag neon yellow again or is that against your era accuracy?) As for outsiders. Yes, earthquakes, looting etc would all be allowed. But, put a banker beside the wandering healer, and one on each end of the teams base, so when you die you run back to base, res, reg up and go again. Outsiders can EQ, etc; but they wouldnt be able to get in the doors. Thats the only way I can imagine it possible?

I agree with the possibility... but a banker? That's a little much. Oh man, you've trapped me Menk. I'm not discussing the possibility of something impossible. Like sand in the hourglass...

Capitalist wrote:

GuardianKnight wrote:You really do seem to have it out for me lately. Are you having some kind of a personal crisis?

I mean it when I say that I'm here for you if you need me. There really is no reason to lash out. I'm not your enemy.

The staff just said that they wanted to add cool things to the server, but it wouldn't be satisfactory to just put it in there and have it all become waste of space, used only for a minority of people.

Faust said that the only era inaccuracy was that it was instanced. If this is to be a OFFICIAL event, I see no problems with setting up rules.

Staff, in old uo, would have put you in jail for sabotaging OFFICIAL, Advertised, regulated, events.
Maybe you could attack people in the audience area with tricks and shenanigans, but the actual event would be off limits.

I didn't play old UO, and I'm not going to read about it to debate this with you. However, I'll leave my definition of trammel for the point of contention and discussion.

Trammel: Any mechanic or location where the game and staff outright protects players from other players.

Trammel's very existence, and the reason it is so widely hated, is not because it gave people 1 temporary place in the world where they are safe. It is hated because it gave people a permanent world that people could stay and never enter the pk world again. Giving people a staged event area that would only happen on a schedule, IS NOT anything like trammel.

The true hate comes from the fact that it killed any use for a pk and divided playebases to the point where one playstyle became irrelevant.

Yours and a few other people's ideas of trammel, here, are completely extremist. When I see this argument, I think that the person waging it is just worried that he/she is going to have to change their playstyle to compete, moving forward.

Capitalist wrote:Trammel: Any mechanic or location where the game and staff outright protects players from other players.

Said another way:

Trammel: An overused UOSA forum meme that refers to any change which negatively affects the fraction of players whose only game joy comes from griefing and PK'ing.

Whitley... right on.

I am offended that the only events that are allowed on UOSA anymore are those that cater to the pvm or griefer crowds. I am neither, so I'm going to cry about that.

Fix AEs and bring them back. That is a worthwhile use of your time.