Tournament Discrepensies

[BlackFoot]

you must not have been here before that change
it saved tournaments :/

ever wondered what a dexxer fight between two mace fighters looks like when neither of them can move and take a step towards each other
wonder no more!

[Mazer]

Well it just seems to me that this tournament is heavily favored towards mages. Mages can poison, but dexxers with poisoning skill can't. Mages can eat limitless food (equivalent to allowing total refresh pot) and avoid stam lock, but no other "pots" are allowed. I feel like allowing poisoning would help bring some balance to the game without changing it too much. I mean, mages just heal through it anyway. I think testing it would be the best solution to this thread, instead of unproductive bickering.

As mentioned before, any 'dexxer' that picks up 50 magery can overcome this problem. That's why Onslaught is 2nd or 3rd (not able to check his rank for sure atm) on the dueling list along with a few others up there.

Kids want ez mode: Equip kryss, double click enemy, bandage every 15 seconds. "FIX THE SERVER FOR ME BECAUSE I CAN'T ADAPT." Let's make it perma win by letting them poison their weapons while we totally ignore the facts that:

1) You're confined in a small arena against a naked mage.
2) Mage cast times here are long here (accurate), getting an energy bolt off against a one-handed weapon with 80+ dex should statistically never happen since the dexxer will swing twice in that time frame (given a 50% hit rate).
3) Healing for a mage and dishing out damage both consume mana. If the dexxer gets the advantage early or survives the first offensive by the mage, there is no reason why he should lose the duel (except for horrible luck, reason why people consider dexxers to be newbish). Again, the value of having 50 magery here is near infinite since one or two gheals plus a cure will cancel out the mage's attack leaving them utterly boned.
4) Dexxer's damage relies on their stamina. For that reason, being able to eat food and keep their stamina up is at the very minimum, as valuable to a dexxer as it is to a mage.
5) Again, a dexxer can heal through poison also. They just have to move beyond their stubborn view that magery doesn't belong on a dexxer's template.

It's a standard across any Pre:Ren server because it is the most fair set-up. We can bicker about this for years, but shard after shard has gone with this ruleset for a reason.

[Ronk]

Just to make it clear, I could care less about tournaments as I never do 1v1 and still wouldn't do them even if poison weapons were allowed but...

It only takes a short time to gain back enough stamina to take a step. Therefore two out of stamina macers could be next to each other in a short time. But yeah, I wasn't there for this. All I know is allowing free food further steals an advantage of being a macer and means that a mage has no need for higher dex.

As for being against a naked mage. What does that have to do with anything? A mage is naked because they choose to be. I don't believe that statement has any place in an argument.

Next, so what if a mage can't get off an ebolt? The mage can run around, stop, cast, etc. If the dexxer runs around they can't swing and when they stop they have to wait for the timer to cycle. Again, this isn't an argument...its merely stating the nature of being a mage.

I think it was established a long time ago that a dexxer has to have magery or they can't compete in the tournament. Hence why it should be called a mage's duel So point 3 was made and agreed on a long time ago. No harm there.

Point 4...food being beneficial to a dexer. I guess that depends on what you consider benefical. If my best ability to draining your measly 25 dex because you maxed your str and int then once again im completely nerfed in the battle because of food. One advantage of fighting wizards is their low dex and, therefore, low stamina...or at least it should be.

Point 5...yes. Established. But on the flip side, a mage could wear armor if they wanted. They could have higher dex to give them more stamina. They could even pick up healing.

Either way, my opinion stands...call it a mage duel and all problems are solved.

[Slade]

All of you are absolutely horrible at expressing yourselves.

The only answer to this problem is to disallow the poisoning spell in addition to the poisoning skill.

Mages, you look like hypocrites. You want to be able to cast poison because you know it essentially guarantees a win over the players who don't rely on magery for healing themselves. Just admit it. For ~45 mana and 5 nightshade, you can all but guarantee victory. On the other hand, you don't want the dexer to be able to poison you because it makes the fight 10 times more irritating, and you might lose.

Nox dexers, you also look like whiny idiots here. You cannot use deadly poison in duel tournaments. This is just not going to happen. Deadly poison is too powerful for tournaments. Using DP in a duel would be no different than letting the mages cast paralyze on you and then summon a daemon. It's overpowering in that type of setting and thus not allowed. But I fear you guys aren't looking at the big picture here. If we allow the poisoning of weapons during these duels, the mages are going to use their 16 poisoning skill (Intelligence grants a 16% modifier to the poison skill) to poison their katanas with store-bought poison and now you're back to square one. Constantly poisoned with no ability to cure/heal in less than 31 seconds. Even if you can use greater poison due to higher skill, the mage will just heal through it and you die anyway.

I've seen many of you say that poison isn't allowed to maintain the "honor" of the duel.

Fine, then disallow poisoning. But that means the magery spell as well. Don't give me this bullshit about how your spell requires "resources" (9 mana) to cast. The dexer is using up 80-100 of his skillpoints on his greater poison ability.

Even more ABSURD is the idiot saying that somehow the poison pot used to poison the weapon breaks the no-potion rule and means you should be allowed to use cure pots to counter it. Bullshit. That poison potion isn't any different than your mandrake root or your halberd. It's a resource that you obtain BEFORE the fight to make you more effective in using your skill points. Swordsmanship without a weapon is useless. Poisoning without a poison potion is useless. If the poison potions were poison pastes or salves or some other non "potion" item, would they suddenly be ok with you? I doubt it.


What am I missing here?....

I think that pretty much sums it up. You're ALL wrong.


And since I already know what most of you will say, I'll continue.

"But, but, but SLADE! THE DEXERS WILL RULE THE DAY BECAUSE NOW I CAN'T INSTA-WIN WITH POISON AND THE 12x12 BOX MEANS I'LL LOSE EVERY TIME!"

You don't know that. And if that turns out to be the case and the removal of poison swings the pendulum of imbalance over to the dexers instead of FIRMLY on the side of the tank mages like it is now, then we cross that bridge when we get to it. My guess is the only answer to that would be to separate mages and dexers. But I would even argue with you there. Seems to me that would be no different than it is now, just that it would be a different template winning more than their fair share, just like the tank mages do now.

[BlackFoot]

the poison spell doesnt belong to a class of player
it is a spell in the spellbook
to say one class of player has an advantage/disadvantage because of this spell is wrong
my blacksmith can cast this spell, my fisherman can cast this spell, my mage can cast this spell, my dexxer can cast this spell, my tamer can cast this spell, my bard can cast this spell

to say a mage has an advantage because of this spell is dumb when every single character ever to be created can cast this spell

if a dexxer wants to poison a mage because they feel it would even the playing field, do it with this spell

[Mazer]

Just to make it clear, I could care less about tournaments as I never do 1v1 and still wouldn't do them even if poison weapons were allowed but...

Then stop right there. Arguing that a mage stuck with a couple points of stamina is as bad as a dexxer with 10-20 stamina is non-sense. The second you take food out of tournies, I'll make a mace mage just to annoy people.

You don't know that. And if that turns out to be the case and the removal of poison swings the pendulum of imbalance over to the dexers instead of FIRMLY on the side of the tank mages like it is now, then we cross that bridge when we get to it. My guess is the only answer to that would be to separate mages and dexers. But I would even argue with you there. Seems to me that would be no different than it is now, just that it would be a different template winning more than their fair share, just like the tank mages do now.

It doesn't need to be "fixed". As mentioned, a competent PvPer rolling a dexxer with a splash of magery can contend for a 1v1 tourney title which is why I brought up Onslaught. I don't need to speculate anything. He has proven most of the people here dead wrong. Tank mages tend to win more because more skillful PvPers who aren't fans of double-click and chase will play a tank mage.

If they were to split up the groups into those with any magery (dexxers like Onslaught included) and zero magery pure dexxers, so be it. But don't mess with the main ruleset that has been tested and proven true on countless other freeshards.

[BlackFoot]

removal of poison swings the pendulum of imbalance over to the dexers instead of FIRMLY on the side of the tank mages like it is now,

obvious you dont pvp or participate in these tournaments with any success or you would understand that what your saying has no ground

mage/resist/tacs/mace/heal/anat/wrestling wins tournements constantly
i won tons of tourny fights on this template

he is a dexxer, if the game is in such favour of the mage how did i even stand a chance let along win so many times

then look at onslaught he had same template won hundreds of matches

your arguement is fail

this becomes an arguement of why shouldnt a player be able to use poisoned weapons in a match when really it shoudl be
why does he need to ? what possible reason does a player need to use poisoned weapons in a tournament match?
and the answer is because he doesnt know how to pvp or use his character properly

[Flash Hardstar]

Blackfoot (because everyone else is posting irrevilvence to the topic and has already been posted and adressed)

You said it would take a mage 300 mana to do what a dexer does with a poisoned kryss. Sometimes I only get 2 charges on my dp'ed items, which does not cost you 300 mana or 5 minutes. You can't possibly compare the two.

Also, atleast you have the option to poison and cancel a heal. If you DID happen to get poisoned, you could just heal through it, it isn't game over. My argument was never about DP, you could cast a lesser, lesser, super inferior poison and it would still be game over. Whether I level 25 poison you, or level -10, you ca nstill heal through them, it does not affect you all that much.

Still, the argument was not under these inclinations. I've repeated it so many times, and Blackfoot, I appreciate your dear sincerity to the subject such that it is equal to mine, but you are giving me raving politician answers like the McCain and Obama debate, I ask one question and you respond with a completely different one.

Commentater: Senator Palin, what have you done with overseas relations?
Senator Palin: Oh yah know it's all about job creation and healthcare, we need to support Joe the Plumber!

[BlackFoot]

you originally asked why we dont allow poisoning in tournaments
my above post explains why
aside from the simple fact poisoning is a crafting skill during t2a and in no way is a pvp skill during t2a

[Flash Hardstar]

It was based upon the discrepinsies, and why mages should be allowed to, but not dexers.

Also,Mazer stop arguing armor, if we are leaving parrying out of the question, my kryss hits near nothing more to somebody wearing a full dexer suit, as opposed to someone naked (minus the shield) I've tested this a few days ago. However, having gm parry and using a shield significantly reduces damage by about half. the damage difference was between 1-3 points for someone wearing a full suit, compared to someone naked.

[Flash Hardstar]

Also, Blackfoot.. stop argueing whther its a craft skill or not during t2a. It didnt change for dexers after t2a, only for mages. So mage based... And if you ever fought me in-game and wondered why the same kryss never runs out of dp charges (ask people like adonis who fought me for 45 min one day), it's becase I use it as a pvp skill in the field, constantly re-applying poisoning. I'd have had to carry 45 kryss's in my backpack, which is expensive and illogical.

Poisoning depends how you look at it, it can be used in an offensive manner. Things such as blacksmithy have no bearing on this subject matter, and i'd like to here anyone try to make a referance to how they would use blacksmithing, in tourneys, in field, or in general for pvp purpouses.

However, this issue HAS been answered by Derrick and will remain opinion to many, and fact in-game on this shard.

[BlackFoot]

whats the difference between you carriying 15 prepoisoned weapons or repoisoning ones in your bag while you fight

after t2a poisoning did change for everyone
and it became wether the player using the weapons ahd poisoning

during this era you are carrying a premade item that has no bearing on your skill
just like carrying a kryss has no bearing on your blacksmithing level

[Flash Hardstar]

whats the difference between you carriying 15 prepoisoned weapons or repoisoning ones in your bag while you fight

after t2a poisoning did change for everyone
and it became wether the player using the weapons ahd poisoning

during this era you are carrying a premade item that has no bearing on your skill
just like carrying a kryss has no bearing on your blacksmithing level

You don't "craft" anything with poisoning, there is no craft menu and nothing spectacular shows up in your bag after poisoning. You simply Enhance the bladed weapon, just like eval enhances magery attacks, anatomy enhances healing and direct attacks, etc... Just another way to view the subject which really seems more logical to argue. I'd also like to note the title for being a poisoner "Assassin" lol... if that doesnt scream pvp or even pvm, I don't know what does.

[BlackFoot]

i find that hard, your making a weapon that does damage when used by somone else, so your weapon has different attributes it is still a weapon that does damage and you dont need any skill to use it
carpenters craft staves that do damage
alchemist amke purple pots taht do damage
piosoners make poisoned weapons that do damage
you as a character shoudl jsut cast posion like every other character
not get specialyl crafted weapons to do it

[Ronk]

Mages, you look like hypocrites. You want to be able to cast poison because you know it essentially guarantees a win over the players who don't rely on magery for healing themselves. Just admit it. For ~45 mana and 5 nightshade, you can all but guarantee victory. On the other hand, you don't want the dexer to be able to poison you because it makes the fight 10 times more irritating, and you might lose.

Agreed

Nox dexers, you also look like whiny idiots here. You cannot use deadly poison in duel tournaments. This is just not going to happen. Deadly poison is too powerful for tournaments. Using DP in a duel would be no different than letting the mages cast paralyze on you and then summon a daemon. It's overpowering in that type of setting and thus not allowed. But I fear you guys aren't looking at the big picture here. If we allow the poisoning of weapons during these duels, the mages are going to use their 16 poisoning skill (Intelligence grants a 16% modifier to the poison skill) to poison their katanas with store-bought poison and now you're back to square one. Constantly poisoned with no ability to cure/heal in less than 31 seconds. Even if you can use greater poison due to higher skill, the mage will just heal through it and you die anyway.

Very very good point/catch. Kudos to you.

Fine, then disallow poisoning. But that means the magery spell as well. Don't give me this bullshit about how your spell requires "resources" (9 mana) to cast. The dexer is using up 80-100 of his skillpoints on his greater poison ability.

Agreed. Seems the most simple solution. No cure points no poison.

Even more ABSURD is the idiot saying that somehow the poison pot used to poison the weapon breaks the no-potion rule and means you should be allowed to use cure pots to counter it. Bullshit. That poison potion isn't any different than your mandrake root or your halberd. It's a resource that you obtain BEFORE the fight to make you more effective in using your skill points. Swordsmanship without a weapon is useless. Poisoning without a poison potion is useless.

I was gonna say this but I chose not to derail the thread.

I think that pretty much sums it up. You're ALL wrong.

Yay, wanna have orcish babies with me?