Spellcaster AI

[Generic Player]

From the Sept 16, 1998 patch: "Spellcasting creatures and NPCs will be smart enough to dispel summoned creatures and beings that are used in combat against them." I haven't found any more detailed reference to it, but spellcasters should queue dispel as their next spell to cast if there is a dispellable being fighting them. Right now it seems like dispel just gets added to the list of possible spells, and they will randomly cast it just like they would cast any other spell. The other issue is that this included any dispellable being fighting the spellcaster, regardless of the spellcasters target. Right now you can provoke a spellcaster on to some other monster, then blade spirit the spellcaster and it won't dispel, it just keeps fighting its provoke target.

[Mikel123]

I actually think this behavior is accurate to 1999. In UOR, with the update to monster AI, they got a lot smarter about dispelling (and curing).

[Generic Player]

I don't think monsters cured themselves at all during this era. Dispelling was immediate if they had the mana for it as soon as the dispel patch was done in sept 98. There's plenty of reference to it in newsgroups/forums, as well as the references to people running balrons, liches, etc out of mana so they could EV them (they just dispel otherwise).

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 68f405f7db
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... d7758b4892
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 4dc72657bb
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 9c1beb78f7

[Mikel123]

That's what I meant, sorry to be confusing. Did you find anything about the dispelling? I ask because the biggest thing about the AI change that I remember was the dispelling. Poison curing, I didn't care about... better pathfinding didn't bother me. But BS and EV went from doing something to doing NOTHING. Man did it suck.

[Generic Player]

This has nothing to do with the post UO:R AI change. Yes, I found lots about the 98 dispel addition, and posted links to some examples in the post you are replying to.

[Mikel123]

The only one of those links that mentions the speed at which dragons would dispel is the second one. The others simply mention that monsters do dispel; no one is debating that.

Here's another quote that supports your recollection:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 7a70ec1989

>In the interest of roleplay and all things "real". What's the chance of a
>bottom dwelling red mage, (see despise), at tops an expert/adept magery
>level (probably being a bit generous here judging by their aresnal)
>immediately dispelling the Energy Vortex from hell the grandmaster magician
>just summoned to dispel his butt?

Here's one supporting my recollection:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 7fdc1a7777

> Isn't that what an Energy Vortex is?


Have you seen one of these in action lately???
If you get a wild one, they will clean out a room full of drakes by
themselves. So far, I have been pretty consisting with only needed 2 to
kill a dragon. First one gets dispelled but poisons the dragon. For some
reason, they can't dispel the 2nd.

Here's another supporting my recollection:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 25115b2656

You are probably casting it on the wrong types of monsters.
If you cast an EV on a ogre, the EV will sit there and twiddle
its thumbs, or come after you.. If you cast an EV on a dragon,
it will rip the dragon to shreds if the dragon does not dispel it
first. EVs thrive on intelligence, so they don't work near as well
on creatures like trolls and ogres.

Another, though you could argue that this is because not all dragons spawn with enough magery to dispel:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 0c532945a9

> >EV is the one thing a dragon owner needs to worry about (other than the far
> >more fearsome Disconnect)

In my experience, a dragon will kill the first EV (if it doesn't dispel it), making it require two. I assume they say three because one or two get dispelled. In any case, if they dispelled everything immediately, it wouldn't take 3, it would take a lot more (and they'd say, the poison would do it, not the third EV).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 04a09c2076

: BTW, dragons do dispel blades and EVs. It takes at least three EVs to take
: down a dragon, and blades are pretty much useless.

[Generic Player]

The only one of those links that mentions the speed at which dragons would dispel is the second one. The others simply mention that monsters do dispel; no one is debating that.

Huh?

First link claims BS can kill anything that can't dispel it. Exaggeration since a couple things could kill one, but it does make the point. If things would only randomly dispel BS/EV then there wouldn't be a distinction being made, it would simply be "BS can kill everything".

Second link outright says dragons dispel immediately.

Third link explicitly talks about running things out of mana so they can't dispel. Again if they wasted their mana casting random spells on EV/BS, then you wouldn't need to care about running them out first. It's the difference between needing a handful of summons to kill something (randomly dispel) vs needing 50 or more for things with lots of mana. Nobody would waste time using up all of a balron's mana to save casting 4 or 5 extra EVs. However they would to save themselves having to cast dozens of EVs.

The fourth link has several people discussing running things out of mana so you can EV them, this time balrons.

Here's another quote that supports your recollection:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 7a70ec1989

Notice how they outright refer to EV as being "useless" because of dispel. There isn't that kind of strong claim in the other direction.

Here's one supporting my recollection:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 7fdc1a7777

That sounds more like a bug with dragons spellcasting getting stuck than support for a "spellcasters should only dispel randomly" claim. It immediately dispels the first one but gets poisoned, then "for some reason" can't dispel after that. I don't see how that supports random dispel at all.

Here's another supporting my recollection:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 25115b2656

That doesn't support your recollection, it supports "dispel ASAP". Notice he says "unless it gets dispelled", and the next post mentions how you have to run casters out of mana so they won't be able to dispel.

Another, though you could argue that this is because not all dragons spawn with enough magery to dispel:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 0c532945a9

Again reading the other posts in that thread makes it clear that casters dispel ASAP:

Well, the caster either ran the daemon out of mana, or otherwise used
that "different level" exploit (EV is next to monster, but on a
different level, does damage to monster, but monster can't see to cast
at it) in order to prevent the monster from dispelling the EV. If not,
then these fearsome creatures were actually beaten by poison.
Personally, I wish them spellcasting monsters would cure themselves
every so often...."

It also supports the idea that monsters curing themselves is not era accurate.

In my experience, a dragon will kill the first EV (if it doesn't dispel it), making it require two.

Wow. This is really quite shocking. I know memory can play tricks on you and all, but dragons were not that bad ass, and EVs were insanely badass. If you ran a balron or ancient wyrm out of mp so it couldn't dispel, a single EV would kill it no problem. Several posts in the linked threads support this.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.game ... 04a09c2076

: BTW, dragons do dispel blades and EVs. It takes at least three EVs to take
: down a dragon, and blades are pretty much useless.

This is the only one that seems to actually support your position. It is also vague and depending on how you interpret it, quite unsupported by other posts. If he means dragons kill EV, then there's tons of posts suggesting that is nonsense. If he is saying it takes 3 evs because it dispels them, then that supports the immediate dispel claim, as it also takes 3 poisons to kill one like that very thread mentions. Blades being pretty much useless doesn't make any sense at all, unless the issue is that EVs were in fact able to resist dispel from dragons with their crappy magery, and blade spirits did not, in which case EVs would take several attempts for a dragon to dispel, allowing them to actually get in some damage since mobs only cast so fast.

[Mikel123]

Again, I'm not debating whether or not they dispelled.

You're making the assumption that someone saying "balrons dispel EV's" means they dispel them IMMEDIATELY. But, only one quote says that.

You're making the assumption that "get them low on mana and then EV them" means that is the ONLY way to keep them from dispelling. But, not one quote says that. Whether they dispel randomly or immediately, that's good advice.

[Faust]

Definitely didn't dispel randomly.

A pool of 10+ spells equates to a 10% chance or less to cast the spell. Top this off with a casting delay it would be completely incorrect and rather rare. Lich Lords would dispel practically immediately when an EV happened to drop down the ledge of the Lich Lord Room after killing the Lich Lord and Lich when the next insta spawn popped.

[Mikel123]

Definitely didn't dispel randomly.

A pool of 10+ spells equates to a 10% chance or less to cast the spell. Top this off with a casting delay it would be completely incorrect and rather rare. Lich Lords would dispel practically immediately when an EV happened to drop down the ledge of the Lich Lord Room after killing the Lich Lord and Lich when the next insta spawn popped.

10% ain't rare

[Generic Player]

You seem to be interpreting things as you wish them to be. Consider people's statements in a reasonable context. Nobody would care about balrons dispelling EV if they did it randomly, since then the EV would last long enough to do plenty of damage before being dispelled, so it would be a non-issue. The only possible reason to even mention running them out of mana first is if they dispelled right away. Without exploiting Z-axis bugs, you had to run casters out of mana or they would simply cast dispel as soon as their spell timer was up, even if they were not targetting the EV/BS, as long as the EV/BS was attacking them. Faust brings up another good example, why would people cast EVs on the ledge in the lich lord room if dispel was random? Lich lords didn't have that much HP, and if dispel were simply a random spell they could cast they would end up dying before casting it half the time. It was cast on the ledge so it could damage the lich lord below while being out of LoS and thus not able to be dispelled.

Also note that when the Z-axis bug was finally fixed in 2001 at the same time they removed EV/BS poison and generally nerfed BS/EV, the devs specifically mentioned it was so that they would be useless against casters unless you ran them out of mana to dispel. (http://www.uopowergamers.com/a-july01.shtml see july 25th entry.) The "improved AI" that brought in better spell choices, curing, etc for mobs was with blackthorn's revenge (2002) so the certainly had "dispel ASAP" behaviour well before the "enhanced AI" patch.

[Azile]

They dispelled imediately with mana. Certainly not random.

[Mikel123]

Generic Player, I'm done arguing with you. This straw man stuff is getting ridiculous.

I always said they did dispel immediately after the UOR AI update. I don't understand why you're acting like we disagree about that. And then you go and cite posts about their behavior after that time as though it has any bearing whatsoever on our era.

Nobody would care about balrons dispelling EV if they did it randomly, since then the EV would last long enough to do plenty of damage before being dispelled, so it would be a non-issue.

I disagree on this. They seem to dispel "randomly" on UOSA right now, and the EVs do NOT last long enough to do plenty of damage. They do a bit, then go away. It's a pretty unreliable strategy to rely on the damage of EVs. So my advice to players trying to kill them this way would be to either wait for the poison to do them in, or to get them low on mana first. In other words, exactly what all of the posts (save that one) is saying.

And for what it's worth... it's not interpreting them the way I want to. It's about determining if they explicitly demonstrate what you're saying. Lack of evidence to the contrary is not good evidence that you're correct. I'm a skeptic.

[Generic Player]

Except that you only apply your skepticism selectively. There is absolutely no evidence that the current behaviour is correct, and despite you not finding anything substantial to support you claim, you continue to insist "the current way is right" based on nothing. And you seem to do this to everyone any time they post anything.

[Faust]

Generic Player, I'm done arguing with you. This straw man stuff is getting ridiculous.

I always said they did dispel immediately after the UOR AI update. I don't understand why you're acting like we disagree about that. And then you go and cite posts about their behavior after that time as though it has any bearing whatsoever on our era.

Nobody would care about balrons dispelling EV if they did it randomly, since then the EV would last long enough to do plenty of damage before being dispelled, so it would be a non-issue.

I disagree on this. They seem to dispel "randomly" on UOSA right now, and the EVs do NOT last long enough to do plenty of damage. They do a bit, then go away. It's a pretty unreliable strategy to rely on the damage of EVs. So my advice to players trying to kill them this way would be to either wait for the poison to do them in, or to get them low on mana first. In other words, exactly what all of the posts (save that one) is saying.

And for what it's worth... it's not interpreting them the way I want to. It's about determining if they explicitly demonstrate what you're saying. Lack of evidence to the contrary is not good evidence that you're correct. I'm a skeptic.

The RunUO code actually isn't random in the way you are thinking it is here. There is a dispel chance variable with in the MageAI.cs script and by default it's sitting around 75%. During the random generated spell choice the chance to choose the dispel spell is based on this variable. Obviously, if the logic succeeds the spell chosen will be dispel and vice versa if otherwise. The spell isn't actually lumped into the entire pool of spells and chosen at random. There is special code that requires the attention of dispelling and it's much more elaborate than simply choosing the spell randomly from the pool of spell choices in game.