Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy

[Tron]

Do you know anything about EUO?

EUO isn't just something you "move to" EUO requires a lot of knowledge and work to use properly.

And limiting the features on razor, that are to out of place or not in line with UOA is umm, a good fix?

How can you say, Downs, that limiting Razor so that it is more like UOA, isn't as good of a fix as a program like UOA? Wouldn't it be the same thing?

And wouldn't it be much easier?

The list of disabled sh*t should not include loop macros, imo, since that seems to be the thing you are most hung up about. A better solution can be found to curb those using that feature for unattended macroing.

[Downs]

The list of disabled sh*t should not include loop macros, imo, since that seems to be the thing you are most hung up about. A better solution can be found to curb those using that feature for unattended macroing.

That's my main thing, i agree with that

[Homie]

and the wishlist has been opened..

i don't want to see the "open door" feature removed -> causes typist's neuritis / tendosynovitis

[Duke Jones]

It appears that we have a factioning between:

-The UO "Purists" who believe in things the way they were and the way it was intended.
and
-The UO "Automatons" who want an easy, convienient, game, covered in a UO "wrapper."


Hmm, I wonder if Derrick would be opposed to renaming order/chaos "Purists/Automatons..."

[Eulogy]

I agree with the proposed, accurate changes.

IMO, the players that would quit over a limited razor is proportionate to the players that would quit over an in game alteration like a full house loot.

The cunning and skillful players will adapt with ease.

Accuracy = Win.

[trag]

I haven't been here a month yet but here is my opinion. I have played UO for about 10 years.

In the sake of era accuracy, I don't believe disabling a few features in Razor (do any of you remember what In Lor means?) would be a bad thing.

Smart targets begin to approach the line of unfair automation (in PVP), however, many of the people playing here have gone through many UO servers before, from what I can sense of it, more RunUO servers than Origin/EA. Anyways, over time, everyone has grown and adapted and incorporated these features into their own play styles, in regards to PvP, I don't think it's a bad thing that you ought to know how to set your Target Macros to be a few milliseconds ahead of the competition - it's like learning a trick of the trade.

I can also agree that unattended resource gathering is very detrimental to any server, it can be hard to police when you only have so many resources to throw at the problem, but that's more about player ethics than Razor.

Disabling Looping would be a very bad thing.
I don't want to sit at my keyboard and Flamestrike myself. Is it really a crime to watch a movie or TV while you gain skills? Or go out and watch a movie or have dinner? Macroing is something you learn, it's a part of the game, another 'trick of the trade'. I think the difficulty of skill gain on this server is perfect for finding the balance between the OSI days of T2A, and what is expected of free shards today.

What the server is doing for era accuracy is awesome. When I play here it feels like I'm back on an OSI shard without "parents" (overzealous GMs) making sure you aren't able to live your REAL LIFE while building a character to PLAY THE GAME with. Does it make the game any more fun clicking through 4 sets of menus and targeting different items by hand? Not for me. That is tedious work that should be acceptable to script the actions. I swear, some people want to take the wheel, and make it a square. Do you really want to cut those 5000 yards of cloth into bandages by hand? No, I'll run my macro, live my life, and come back and, oh dear, be able to PLAY THE GAME.

I have heard suggestions that just scream "I'm sticking my head in the dirt" and "I want to build fire with sticks instead of matches. Actually, I want to grow the tree first" and WHILE THAT IS FUN AND ALL, the reality is there is no way to prevent people from doing things unattended (resources, skillgain, whatever) without a fairly sizable team to enforce it.

The TLDR Version:

- I want people to have to cast night sight or buy night sight potions again.
- Most 'unfair' features about Razor can be disabled server side, it appears to be an easy tweak
- I think smart targetting is fine, and should be allowed, it is a part of PvP you learn (don't use it personally)
- AFK Resources = bad, AFK Skillgain = Fine. We have lives (some of us)

As much as it would be great to go back to 1998 and play Ultima, we do not have a time machine here, but a pretty damn good working prototype. Maybe one day an open source version of UOA will be released, but until then, Razor will be king. It goes hand in hand with RunUO.

If they removed razor entirely - I would not up and quit.
Everything I have seen here is top notch, and I have been part of RunUO and freeserver since it dominated the UOX emulator. I have 100% confidence in whatever decision the Admins decide to take it.

[Orsi]

If this were implemented I would consider re-joining the shard.

To me, the spirit of UO has been gutted by Razor. There were two things that made old-school UO great I think: what you could do and what you couldn't. The game allows you to interact with 95% of the objects within it, something that no other game at the time even came close to, and interaction of the players with each other and the world were the core fundamentals. What you couldn't do was link multiple actions in a chain; that is to say, bypass the need for players to interact with each individual object of the game.

As a poster remarked earlier, who even sees In Lor or any words of power anymore? That is Ultima Online people. Nobody wanted to buy and play Ultima back in 1999 because they heard you could interrupt a spell 70% of the time when you hit, ships sailed a certain speed, whether tamed animals followed you properly, or murderers became permanently red. People wanted to play Ultima Online because of the fantasy, the history, culture, whatever you want to call it. This is one thing UO Second Age has failed to do, at least what I experienced while playing over a year ago. You don't feel like you are in a living world, there are no quests happening, there is no story; and yes, I know for the most part OSI wasn't the best at this either, but there were things happening over each individual shard in the means of Seers and the prevalence of GMs, Counselors and other random 'above' the player interactions.

I would gladly sign back up for this shard if focus was redirected from finding obscure minuscule mechanics that have been lost or forgotten, and more towards creating the atmosphere or vibe of being in Britainia. For the most part, the major areas of T2A accuracies have been corrected, now it is time for the soul of the era to come back.

In summary, it isn't so much Razor itself that is the problem for me but what it consequently discourages in the game. Hell, I believe half the people I met in-game back in 1999 were from bumming In Lor's in a dungeon, something which has been entirely removed with the light feature in Razor.

[vkamicht]

If this were implemented I would consider re-joining the shard.

To me, the spirit of UO has been gutted by Razor. There were two things that made old-school UO great I think: what you could do and what you couldn't. The game allows you to interact with 95% of the objects within it, something that no other game at the time even came close to, and interaction of the players with each other and the world were the core fundamentals. What you couldn't do was link multiple actions in a chain; that is to say, bypass the need for players to interact with each individual object of the game.

As a poster remarked earlier, who even sees In Lor or any words of power anymore? That is Ultima Online people. Nobody wanted to buy and play Ultima back in 1999 because they heard you could interrupt a spell 70% of the time when you hit, ships sailed a certain speed, whether tamed animals followed you properly, or murderers became permanently red. People wanted to play Ultima Online because of the fantasy, the history, culture, whatever you want to call it. This is one thing UO Second Age has failed to do, at least what I experienced while playing over a year ago. You don't feel like you are in a living world, there are no quests happening, there is no story; and yes, I know for the most part OSI wasn't the best at this either, but there were things happening over each individual shard in the means of Seers and the prevalence of GMs, Counselors and other random 'above' the player interactions.

I would gladly sign back up for this shard if focus was redirected from finding obscure minuscule mechanics that have been lost or forgotten, and more towards creating the atmosphere or vibe of being in Britainia. For the most part, the major areas of T2A accuracies have been corrected, now it is time for the soul of the era to come back.

In summary, it isn't so much Razor itself that is the problem for me but what it consequently discourages in the game. Hell, I believe half the people I met in-game back in 1999 were from bumming In Lor's in a dungeon, something which has been entirely removed with the light feature in Razor.

[Duke Jones]

I would gladly sign back up for this shard if focus was redirected from finding obscure minuscule mechanics that have been lost or forgotten, and more towards creating the atmosphere or vibe of being in Britainia. For the most part, the major areas of T2A accuracies have been corrected, now it is time for the soul of the era to come back.

This comment sits very well with me.

Derrick has done a really good job with T2A. Looking up historical gameplay mechanics is a monster of a project and so far so good. But the monster of T2A policy is still rearing it's ugly head and wreaking havok while tweaks and cosmetic touches are still being looked at.

[Derrick]

OSI had the blessing of only operating the T2A era for 18 months

We are at this time beginning to try and focus more on in game content, as I agree that the major mechanics issues are pretty much resolved; although I'm sure little things will continue to surface.

[Tron]

If this were implemented I would consider re-joining the shard.

To me, the spirit of UO has been gutted by Razor. There were two things that made old-school UO great I think: what you could do and what you couldn't. The game allows you to interact with 95% of the objects within it, something that no other game at the time even came close to, and interaction of the players with each other and the world were the core fundamentals. What you couldn't do was link multiple actions in a chain; that is to say, bypass the need for players to interact with each individual object of the game.

As a poster remarked earlier, who even sees In Lor or any words of power anymore? That is Ultima Online people. Nobody wanted to buy and play Ultima back in 1999 because they heard you could interrupt a spell 70% of the time when you hit, ships sailed a certain speed, whether tamed animals followed you properly, or murderers became permanently red. People wanted to play Ultima Online because of the fantasy, the history, culture, whatever you want to call it. This is one thing UO Second Age has failed to do, at least what I experienced while playing over a year ago. You don't feel like you are in a living world, there are no quests happening, there is no story; and yes, I know for the most part OSI wasn't the best at this either, but there were things happening over each individual shard in the means of Seers and the prevalence of GMs, Counselors and other random 'above' the player interactions.

I would gladly sign back up for this shard if focus was redirected from finding obscure minuscule mechanics that have been lost or forgotten, and more towards creating the atmosphere or vibe of being in Britainia. For the most part, the major areas of T2A accuracies have been corrected, now it is time for the soul of the era to come back.

In summary, it isn't so much Razor itself that is the problem for me but what it consequently discourages in the game. Hell, I believe half the people I met in-game back in 1999 were from bumming In Lor's in a dungeon, something which has been entirely removed with the light feature in Razor.

You're wanting more than any uo shard can give you today. The reason UO doesn't feel like a fantasy wonderland anymore is because the genre is tired. UO, during the t2a era, was new. And it was the only mmo besides EQ to choose from. The "lack of seers and prevalence of gm's" is very era accurate to me, btw. You were lucky if your shard had 2 seer quests over a 6 month time. It's like once a month here. Getting a little off track. But mainly, gamers are jaded now, and the mmo thing has been going for 10 years. During t2a you had a bunch of people who had only ever played UO, but most of the people here now have probably played over 10 mmos by now. They don't feel the same about UO as they did back then. It's almost impossible too. You will not re-create that experience, ever.

So while I'll agree that limiting razor is a good idea, as I have already. Putting blame on razor for "limiting player interaction" is probably inaccurate. It's the players that limit their own interaction. Why does it need to be casting "In Lor" that lets you meet someone new in a dungeon? You could heal them, or just talk to them in general, right? Razors not stopping you.

[Orsi]

You're wanting more than any uo shard can give you today. The reason UO doesn't feel like a fantasy wonderland anymore is because the genre is tired. UO, during the t2a era, was new. And it was the only mmo besides EQ to choose from. The "lack of seers and prevalence of gm's" is very era accurate to me, btw. You were lucky if your shard had 2 seer quests over a 6 month time. It's like once a month here. Getting a little off track. But mainly, gamers are jaded now, and the mmo thing has been going for 10 years. During t2a you had a bunch of people who had only ever played UO, but most of the people here now have probably played over 10 mmos by now. They don't feel the same about UO as they did back then. It's almost impossible too. You will not re-create that experience, ever.

So while I'll agree that limiting razor is a good idea, as I have already. Putting blame on razor for "limiting player interaction" is probably inaccurate. It's the players that limit their own interaction. Why does it need to be casting "In Lor" that lets you meet someone new in a dungeon? You could heal them, or just talk to them in general, right? Razors not stopping you.

Saying it's a 10 year old game is not a reason why it doesn't feel the same anymore. I've replayed all the old Final Fantasy's and SNES/NES RPGs repeatedly over and over again and never played halfway through the game and stopped because it just 'wasn't the same'.

I'm not laying the blame solely on Razor, it is only part of the problem I see. It's not the same as 10 years ago because there are processes which automate and replace being 'in' the actual game itself:

• running complex loops which craft/gather while not in-game

• never learning An Ex Por means someone is going to paralyze you because of auto-translating

• never getting lost in a dungeon because a lack of In Lor regs, nightsight potions or even a torch because of always lights on

• scavenger agents which remove the scramble for loot

• target by type removes even looking for items for thieves

That is just a small list of examples, but they pile up quick. Each 'feature' removes the player ever slightly out of the game world, until eventually the game does't 'feel' the same anymore because they aren't actually 'in' it. Razor has a big part in removing people out of the world, but there are also not enough things done in general to rope them back into it. Correcting technical discrepencies is good and all, but they don't immerse anyone by knowing certain durations of delays.

Also, there is an average of 500 players on at any time now, so the playerbase is there. Given, a portion of them are probably macroing multiple characters, but it is indicative of the gradual increase in players which has been happening. Making it more enjoyable for vets who know what they are doing to get out on the field with unfinished characters can be done, it's just a matter of making certain incentives for it. This can be done a plethora of ways without altering any T2A mechanics, it just takes a little bit of creativity. Have events which sever off certain areas of the shard for a period of time to consolidate players into one area; create hot spots by altering spawns every once and awhile, etc. T2A accuracy is what we should be a foundation to build off of, not an end.

There is nothing fun about playing in a world that is not growing or changing. You can vary aspects of the game without changing accuracy.

[Duke Jones]

You're wanting more than any uo shard can give you today. The reason UO doesn't feel like a fantasy wonderland anymore is because the genre is tired. UO, during the t2a era, was new. And it was the only mmo besides EQ to choose from. The "lack of seers and prevalence of gm's" is very era accurate to me, btw. You were lucky if your shard had 2 seer quests over a 6 month time. It's like once a month here. Getting a little off track. But mainly, gamers are jaded now, and the mmo thing has been going for 10 years. During t2a you had a bunch of people who had only ever played UO, but most of the people here now have probably played over 10 mmos by now. They don't feel the same about UO as they did back then. It's almost impossible too. You will not re-create that experience, ever.

So while I'll agree that limiting razor is a good idea, as I have already. Putting blame on razor for "limiting player interaction" is probably inaccurate. It's the players that limit their own interaction. Why does it need to be casting "In Lor" that lets you meet someone new in a dungeon? You could heal them, or just talk to them in general, right? Razors not stopping you.

Saying it's a 10 year old game is not a reason why it doesn't feel the same anymore. I've replayed all the old Final Fantasy's and SNES/NES RPGs repeatedly over and over again and never played halfway through the game and stopped because it just 'wasn't the same'.

I'm not laying the blame solely on Razor, it is only part of the problem I see. It's not the same as 10 years ago because there are processes which automate and replace being 'in' the actual game itself:

• running complex loops which craft/gather while not in-game

• never learning An Ex Por means someone is going to paralyze you because of auto-translating

• never getting lost in a dungeon because a lack of In Lor regs, nightsight potions or even a torch because of always lights on

• scavenger agents which remove the scramble for loot

• target by type removes even looking for items for thieves

That is just a small list of examples, but they pile up quick. Each 'feature' removes the player ever slightly out of the game world, until eventually the game does't 'feel' the same anymore because they aren't actually 'in' it. Razor has a big part in removing people out of the world, but there are also not enough things done in general to rope them back into it. Correcting technical discrepencies is good and all, but they don't immerse anyone by knowing certain durations of delays.

Also, there is an average of 500 players on at any time now, so the playerbase is there. Given, a portion of them are probably macroing multiple characters, but it is indicative of the gradual increase in players which has been happening. Making it more enjoyable for vets who know what they are doing to get out on the field with unfinished characters can be done, it's just a matter of making certain incentives for it. This can be done a plethora of ways without altering any T2A mechanics, it just takes a little bit of creativity. Have events which sever off certain areas of the shard for a period of time to consolidate players into one area; create hot spots by altering spawns every once and awhile, etc. T2A accuracy is what we should be a foundation to build off of, not an end.

There is nothing fun about playing in a world that is not growing or changing. You can vary aspects of the game without changing accuracy.

Wow. that's pretty much what I've been trying to say, and you said it EXACTLY how i wanted to say it.

I. O. U. one beer.

Cheers.

[Hemperor]

Well said guys, glad this is getting some good attention.

It's really a debate between true accuracy and custom UO laziness/"fun"

[Tron]

You're wanting more than any uo shard can give you today. The reason UO doesn't feel like a fantasy wonderland anymore is because the genre is tired. UO, during the t2a era, was new. And it was the only mmo besides EQ to choose from. The "lack of seers and prevalence of gm's" is very era accurate to me, btw. You were lucky if your shard had 2 seer quests over a 6 month time. It's like once a month here. Getting a little off track. But mainly, gamers are jaded now, and the mmo thing has been going for 10 years. During t2a you had a bunch of people who had only ever played UO, but most of the people here now have probably played over 10 mmos by now. They don't feel the same about UO as they did back then. It's almost impossible too. You will not re-create that experience, ever.

So while I'll agree that limiting razor is a good idea, as I have already. Putting blame on razor for "limiting player interaction" is probably inaccurate. It's the players that limit their own interaction. Why does it need to be casting "In Lor" that lets you meet someone new in a dungeon? You could heal them, or just talk to them in general, right? Razors not stopping you.

Saying it's a 10 year old game is not a reason why it doesn't feel the same anymore. I've replayed all the old Final Fantasy's and SNES/NES RPGs repeatedly over and over again and never played halfway through the game and stopped because it just 'wasn't the same'.

I'm not laying the blame solely on Razor, it is only part of the problem I see. It's not the same as 10 years ago because there are processes which automate and replace being 'in' the actual game itself:

• running complex loops which craft/gather while not in-game

• never learning An Ex Por means someone is going to paralyze you because of auto-translating

• never getting lost in a dungeon because a lack of In Lor regs, nightsight potions or even a torch because of always lights on

• scavenger agents which remove the scramble for loot

• target by type removes even looking for items for thieves

That is just a small list of examples, but they pile up quick. Each 'feature' removes the player ever slightly out of the game world, until eventually the game does't 'feel' the same anymore because they aren't actually 'in' it. Razor has a big part in removing people out of the world, but there are also not enough things done in general to rope them back into it. Correcting technical discrepencies is good and all, but they don't immerse anyone by knowing certain durations of delays.

Also, there is an average of 500 players on at any time now, so the playerbase is there. Given, a portion of them are probably macroing multiple characters, but it is indicative of the gradual increase in players which has been happening. Making it more enjoyable for vets who know what they are doing to get out on the field with unfinished characters can be done, it's just a matter of making certain incentives for it. This can be done a plethora of ways without altering any T2A mechanics, it just takes a little bit of creativity. Have events which sever off certain areas of the shard for a period of time to consolidate players into one area; create hot spots by altering spawns every once and awhile, etc. T2A accuracy is what we should be a foundation to build off of, not an end.

There is nothing fun about playing in a world that is not growing or changing. You can vary aspects of the game without changing accuracy.

You said "If this was implemented I would consider re-joining the shard"

Which basically comes off that you were putting blame on Razor for players not interacting.

Once again, the In Lor example you used, that I called out as a "cop out" plays here.

It's not razor that's not letting you interact, it's you.

The little examples you put here;

• running complex loops which craft/gather while not in-game

- AFK resource gathering is illegal. Don't blame the program for this, blame the players.

• never learning An Ex Por means someone is going to paralyze you because of auto-translating

- This would be nice, for new players of UO. That's not what are community consists of. This is almost irrelevant. And we're not trying to create T2A for people that have never played, are we?

• never getting lost in a dungeon because a lack of In Lor regs, nightsight potions or even a torch because of always lights on

- Again, an issue for new players, who honestly doesn't know their way around dungeons?

• scavenger agents which remove the scramble for loot

- Scavenger doesn't auto loot.

• target by type removes even looking for items for thieves

- Explain?

I guess I just read you opening statement to your arguments and it's like you're laying the blame for the game feeling 10 years old on an assist program. The lack of razor, isn't going to make the game feel the same as it did back then. Player interaction is the players responsibility. Do something about it. The things you want can still be had if you put effort in. Banning razor is not some lazy mans fix for your problems. You know why you can play those 10 year old single player games and have it feel the same? It's single player, you only have to convince yourself it's the same experience. You don't have to worry about the 400 other guys who don't feel the same way about "Final Fantasy" or play "Final Fantasy" for any of the same reasons you do.

To quote you.
There is nothing fun about playing in a world that is not growing or changing. You can vary aspects of the game without changing accuracy.

That would mean Final Fantasy is boring, wouldn't it? Does that mean when we finally get t2a accuracy it'll be boring because nothing is changing? No of course not, but I'm trying to say your argument is misplaced. It sounds like your gripe, after reading 2 of your last posts, is over lack of "world events" and "quests". Which were never a big part of t2a in the first place. Take it upon yourself to make this stuff happen, like Blackfoot does, but until then you can't be miss something that was never a prevalent feature of t2a, and isn't something that razor is preventing.