Discussion: Limiting Razor for era accuracy

[Duke Jones]

So, is it possible to find documentation or notes on UO Assist and OSI's policy on what was and wasn't allowed?

If And when we did get those notes, could we apply them to how razor should work when connecting to UOSA?

[Zorce]

[Akanigit]

So, is it possible to find documentation or notes on UO Assist and OSI's policy on what was and wasn't allowed?

If And when we did get those notes, could we apply them to how razor should work when connecting to UOSA?

You can head over to http://www.tugsoft.com and dig through the news and all of the updates and get an idea about what was allowed etc.

[virtue]

First off, you aren't playing Ultima Online. All you are doing is is just fast forwarding to the end of the game.

UO has no endgame. This isn't World of Warcraft, WOW has endgame...

UO is a social atmosphere. One of the biggest parts of Uo was the social aspect, do any of you remember 1998 when brit bank was packed with socializing. There would be smiths taking orders at the blacksmith.

People would be socializing at their homes.

Whether or not you are a 7xgm player or a 60 swords/tactics newbie. You can still socialize and be on the same level as players because everyone is a Brittanian.

Play the game in context and you'll have more fun, stop analyzing it and thinking "oh well the game is about progression".

This is not WOW, who cares if people max their characters out fast. Then they can help newbies max theirs, the point of UO is to have fun with whatever way you want.

UO has always been about freedom and the destiny you chose and your own journey to take.

[Sentinel]

There's certainly no way I could manually cast thousands of flamestrikes or provoke thousands of creatures entirely manually at this point. It would be maddening.

[Duke Jones]

There's certainly no way I could manually cast thousands of flamestrikes or provoke thousands of creatures entirely manually at this point. It would be maddening.

"No way?" In what context is there "No way?"

In a span of a week or a few days? No, I guess technically it's not possible. That's why some players were more dedicated than others in the late 90's, because they had to work at their skill over time (something that this server feels players should be exempt from). Wanting GM in a short time is some artificial standard you (and many players) are giving to themselves, not the game. If you had a busy life, you had to realize that it would take longer to reach their goals, where as people who were dedicated to playing the games for extended periods of time:
A) Explored more, and had more natural understanding of the world, and
B) Had more opportunities at skill gain.

Currently, the people who aren't even at the computer, have the same rate of skill gain (if not better) than people who actually are sitting at the computer playing. How is this legitamate?

Back in the day, it wasn't about getting to 6-7x GM in some time limit. Players ran around, interacted with each other, explored, grouped, and skill gain was PART of that gameplay, not separated from it. In fact, getting a GM title in something was cause for praise, not the standard. If you saw a GM Smith, you respected that kinda dedication. Here, it's like "Meh, everyone has a GM this or that on their alt/alt account." It's the elitist, power gaming, lazy community, and third party apps like razor that gutted that old concept of player interaction and skill gain through gameplay. Now, it's nothing more than nostalgia.

UO was, at inception, as virtue said, a social experiment. No one knew the rules to making a successful and profitable MMO back then. UO, was this weird cross between a multiplayer fantasy game and an over-the-top, glorified chatroom, It was basically a virtual Renaissance Fair.

Here, it's "just another Free MMO" Full of Elitist power gamers, gold farmers, over-competitive PVPers, and jerk grievers who want to see how much they can get away with.

[Tron]

There's certainly no way I could manually cast thousands of flamestrikes or provoke thousands of creatures entirely manually at this point. It would be maddening.

"No way?" In what context is there "No way?"

In a span of a week or a few days? No, I guess technically it's not possible. That's why some players were more dedicated than others in the late 90's, because they had to work at their skill over time (something that this server feels players should be exempt from). Wanting GM in a short time is some artificial standard you (and many players) are giving to themselves, not the game. If you had a busy life, you had to realize that it would take longer to reach their goals, where as people who were dedicated to playing the games for extended periods of time:
A) Explored more, and had more natural understanding of the world, and
B) Had more opportunities at skill gain.

Currently, the people who aren't even at the computer, have the same rate of skill gain (if not better) than people who actually are sitting at the computer playing. How is this legitamate?

Back in the day, it wasn't about getting to 6-7x GM in some time limit. Players ran around, interacted with each other, explored, grouped, and skill gain was PART of that gameplay, not separated from it. In fact, getting a GM title in something was cause for praise, not the standard. If you saw a GM Smith, you respected that kinda dedication. Here, it's like "Meh, everyone has a GM this or that on their alt/alt account." It's the elitist, power gaming, lazy community, and third party apps like razor that gutted that old concept of player interaction and skill gain through gameplay. Now, it's nothing more than nostalgia.

UO was, at inception, as virtue said, a social experiment. No one knew the rules to making a successful and profitable MMO back then. UO, was this weird cross between a multiplayer fantasy game and an over-the-top, glorified chatroom, It was basically a virtual Renaissance Fair.

Here, it's "just another Free MMO" Full of Elitist power gamers, gold farmers, over-competitive PVPers, and jerk grievers who want to see how much they can get away with.

The way you want the gameplay to pan out, isn't the way all of us feel it should.

And I have to say this, because you've said it multiple times. I don't want to "work" while I play uo. Not everyone thinks an mmo should be a second job.

[Neoptolemos]

There's certainly no way I could manually cast thousands of flamestrikes or provoke thousands of creatures entirely manually at this point. It would be maddening.

"No way?" In what context is there "No way?"

In a span of a week or a few days? No, I guess technically it's not possible. That's why some players were more dedicated than others in the late 90's, because they had to work at their skill over time (something that this server feels players should be exempt from). Wanting GM in a short time is some artificial standard you (and many players) are giving to themselves, not the game. If you had a busy life, you had to realize that it would take longer to reach their goals, where as people who were dedicated to playing the games for extended periods of time:
A) Explored more, and had more natural understanding of the world, and
B) Had more opportunities at skill gain.

Your mindset and my mindset are completely different. First, I've already experienced the working for skill over time back on OSI on a server with thousands of people. Hunting trolls and ogres with 20 dex, a halberd, and bone armor. Feeling rich when I had 5k in my bank. Being happy when I got mark to go off successfully after only 1 cast with low 60s magery. Exploring the world. Running away from high level Tmap spawn people left in the world. Been there done that NUMEROUS times. Most people on this server have.

Currently, the people who aren't even at the computer, have the same rate of skill gain (if not better) than people who actually are sitting at the computer playing. How is this legitamate?

Why do you care if its legitimate or not? Does what I'm doing affect you in any way shape or form when I've never met you in game, stole your spawn, stole from your backpack, or PKed you?

Back in the day, it wasn't about getting to 6-7x GM in some time limit. Players ran around, interacted with each other, explored, grouped, and skill gain was PART of that gameplay, not separated from it.

I'm still very interested in this. In fact, I'm actually looking for people to hang out with now that I've established myself. Now that I am, I can jump right into social interaction, PvP, and fun.

In fact, getting a GM title in something was cause for praise, not the standard. If you saw a GM Smith, you respected that kinda dedication. Here, it's like "Meh, everyone has a GM this or that on their alt/alt account." It's the elitist, power gaming, lazy community, and third party apps like razor that gutted that old concept of player interaction and skill gain through gameplay. Now, it's nothing more than nostalgia.

Cause its boring as crap for 95% of the playerbase. Why do you need to be gaining skills to interact? Roleplayers don't do it. PvPers don't do it.

UO was, at inception, as virtue said, a social experiment. No one knew the rules to making a successful and profitable MMO back then. UO, was this weird cross between a multiplayer fantasy game and an over-the-top, glorified chatroom, It was basically a virtual Renaissance Fair.

UO is and always will be what you make of it, which is why its so awesome.

Here, it's "just another Free MMO" Full of Elitist power gamers, gold farmers, over-competitive PVPers, and jerk grievers who want to see how much they can get away with.

Then avoid those people and look for ones who share your mindset. I dunno why anyone would bother farming so much gold, its not like you can sell it on ebay. I never saw the point of it other then providing me with PvP supplies and a house to store stuff.

[Mantis Atlantis]

After perusing these 15 pages, it's obvious that disabling Razor is not an option. Razor is just too convenient, and the good far outweighs the bad. And with the advanced macroing feature there and "Loop" being just a tiny little checkbox, it's difficult *not* to use it.

It seems that we are fighting two core issues here:

1) Unattended macroing
2) Razor-macro PvP combat

Since I'm not involved in PvP, I can't speak for or against #2 from personal experience, but I think that some code of PvP ethics makes you more elite if you don't macro your way to the top.

As for #1, I think someone who macros unattended is missing out a lot of fun. There seems to be the misconception that you can't do interesting things in this game unless you've mastered your skills first. That said, I'm guilty of this myself. I've macroed Hiding on my character to help maintain some defensive measure against PK's. I rationalize it by telling myself my character is dealing with bouts of insanity, trapped within the realm of Britannia and phasing in and out of consciousness and therefore, existence.

Macroing certain skills have a more significant impact on the economy than others, such as trade skills like blacksmithy or tailoring. Supportive skills (like Hiding, for example ) have significantly less impact. I think Duke Jones's approach -- by opening a macro-free shop -- is a fine way for players to show their support for an honest worker.

On this shard, far fewer people expend the effort to macro up their own tradesmen than those who simply buy their goods (and I may be wrong on this). Thus, we have a Wal-Mart situation. Players can either buy from the mega-vendors who have tremendous stock and abysmal prices, from honest tradesmen with good stock and fair prices, or from somewhere in-between.

And, of course, there are other implications of having a higher percentage of highly skilled warriors, mages, tamers, bards, etc. One obvious implication is the [potential] overcrowding of top-tier spawns, or an overabundance of powerful PK's. Still, these are not intractable problems.

When a newbie comes to the forums asking about character templates and what he should be doing to be successful, then maybe he's asking the wrong questions. There's nothing wrong with asking the questions, but whoever answers those questions will likely set the stage for how that person approaches the game. If you're anti-macro, that's your chance to be a mentor. If you're pro-macro, that's your chance as well.

Finally, if you want to ban unattended macroing, it should be enforced policy from the very beginning. The damage has already been done, and to change policy now is only going to make things more confusing to new players. The best you can hope for is to make it an unpopular path to choose. The expiring murder gump seems like a tiny step in the right direction, IMHO.

[Mantis Atlantis]

virtue said:

UO has no endgame. This isn't World of Warcraft, WOW has endgame...
UO is a social atmosphere. One of the biggest parts of Uo was the social aspect, do any of you remember 1998 when brit bank was packed with socializing. There would be smiths taking orders at the blacksmith.

People would be socializing at their homes.

Whether or not you are a 7xgm player or a 60 swords/tactics newbie. You can still socialize and be on the same level as players because everyone is a Brittanian.

Play the game in context and you'll have more fun, stop analyzing it and thinking "oh well the game is about progression".

This is not WOW, who cares if people max their characters out fast. Then they can help newbies max theirs, the point of UO is to have fun with whatever way you want.

I couldn't agree more. There's something heartwrenching about the realization that most of the players you try to talk to aren't even really there. If I had just started playing this game, I would think 90% of the players were actually NPCs because they either a) never say anything, b) never move, c) say the same thing over and over, or d) do the same thing over and over. It's not just that. There's definitely a certain social vibe that is missing, but the only way to defeat that is to *gasp!* socialize!

[Sentinel]

I couldn't agree more. There's something heartwrenching about the realization that most of the players you try to talk to aren't even really there.

Take things a bit serious much?

[Orsi]

The argument is to limit Razor's features. This can be done if, and only if, Derrick decides to make Razor a requirement to connect so it can negotiate the features with the server.

Those who wish to limit certain features believe it would foster more community, social interaction, and encourage the atmosphere of the era. Contentious features like: always having night sight, elaborate macros that can loop, and special targets; features which never existed during the T2A era. These features allow players to automate or bypass restrictions inherent in the game itself, thus ruining aspects of gameplay such as PvP, skill progression or world exploration.

Others believe that enforcing Razor limitations would only prevent access to players who do not connect to Razor. They also believe that it is unwarranted to limit certain features because either it would be too difficult or tedious to play, thus driving away or deterring players.

Again, as other similar issues, it comes down to two views of era accuracy. Do we strive to go all the way and replicate the environment of T2A by using options that are available, or do we settle with the technology we have now and accept the social arrangement it creates?

And to those who post pictures in reference to beating a dead horse: dead horses stay dead, they don't die and come back to life multiple times. If this topic is repeatedly brought back up it is because enough people believe the issue is worth discussing.

[Hemperor]

Again, as other similar issues, it comes down to two views of era accuracy. Do we strive to go all the way and replicate the environment of T2A by using options that are available, or do we settle with the technology we have now and accept the social arrangement it creates?

Well said. That is essentially the question and most are too ignorant or self absorbed to even realise it. It's fine to want the latter, just admit/realise it.

[archaicsubrosa77]

If removing Razor completely was an option, I am a big fan of In Lor and I started and completed a couple characters manually, I would be for it. On the other hand it's not and I will use it, I enjoy using it too. I don't care about the economy or whatever it gives more reasons for blacksmiths and other crafters to be in town in my opinion...more convenient, easy money in repairs,cuts vendor costs etc. Could even tell people to resort to ingame chat or on irc to contact you while you play on your main if business is slow.

While I respect Duke for his purist attitude and because of it visited his shop on several occasions. I believe its the right of the player to make the decision his/herself on whether to use Razor in gameplay and to what degree.

Are you really going to last skill last target for days just to get evaluating intelligence to 100? Your wife/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband,friends,family, dog/cat whatever would disown you or you them. The macroing a character off in-game is comparable to training and leveling up in role playing games, you might have small sessions where you play it out but most of the time you cut to the chase and get on with the adventure.

In Lor however being nullified is disheartening. I use light levels because I have to, because others are doing it. I have one offensive combat macro which would be near impossible to pull off manually for a slight one time edge because people are doing it. Its part of the system here, and its not as bad as what you make it out to be.

Razor is not going to be removed Duke, and it really shouldn't be. I would only like light level filters to be removed, because that takes away from the atmosphere of the game everything else however I believe enhances it.

[Mantis Atlantis]

Mantis Atlantis wrote:
I couldn't agree more. There's something heartwrenching about the realization that most of the players you try to talk to aren't even really there.


Take things a bit serious much?

[/emo]